Absolutely brilliant deep dive into this musical friendship. The detail about that unrecorded 1961-62 sextet is wild becuase it couldve shifted jazz history entirely. Had a similar experince digging through old recordings and discovering these untold stories. The point about JJ's emphasis on "logic" versus the abstract approach needed for that mid-60s sound realy explains alot about trombone's trajectory.
Excellent piece, many thanks. It connects a few things that needed connecting. Random, but: am I alone in hearing "Minor Ninths, Part 1" and instantly thinking of Sun Ra? Something about the calm irresolution in the chords, along with that muted bell...
Really great stuff -- many thanks. You pose an interesting question about who are the trombonists who could cope with the aesthetic and technical challenges of 1960s post-bop defined by the records Ethan points to. While I agree that Curtis Fuller isn't quite right for this context-- he's certainly not the equal of JoeHen, Herbie, Wayne, Freddie, Hutcherson, etc. -- he still makes a good showing on the two tracks on Wayne's "Schizophrenia" where he solos (the title tune and "Playground.") If he had additional opportunities in this idiom, I wonder how he might have developed. But the late '60s were a down-period for him personally and professionally, and he even left music for a day job at one point.
Otherwise, Grachan Moncur and Roswell Rudd were great in their lanes but not right in this context. What was Julian Priester up to post-Blakey and pre-Mwandishi? Does Garnett Brown even solo on "The Prisoner"?
Love Curtis Fuller, he is one of my all time favorites, and had the technique to do anything, but I don’t think he aesthetically aligned with this style. You can hear his own records like crankin where he didn’t really do a 70s miles thing. It was more along the lines of what j j did, funk vamps with a giant blowing session over it. The experimentation of bitches brew was removed. The others I love too but they all side stepped this by one way or another. Maybe they were smart to do so; grachan made spacey masterpieces that are way more compelling than listening to him do choruses on inner urge. There is also manglesdorff and eje thelin who made miles and trane inspired records in the 60s. Manglesdorff arrived at something else, texture over line, another way of sidestepping. He started as a more linear player.
I love Priester - I think a favorite for me is Herbie Hancock's Sextant. But I don't think of him as jelling with that style of those mentioned above - the focus is complex harmony expressed through technically dazzling melodic lines...like I say, several of these folks could have done it but none seemed inclined to do it.
He has a pretty big discography that covers a lot of ground. I can't say I know a lot of it, but he played on some pretty straight ahead bebob in the 60s and my favorite albums I have with him on it are those with Dave Holland in the 80s which certainly fit the bill of complex harmony.
I can see how you'd say he's not one to play technically dazzling melodic lines.
There's an alternate universe where Bill Watrous, who studied with Herbie Nichols in the late 50s and was Roswell's roommate, devotes his considerable technique to small group avant garde jazz and discards all interest in commercialism. Lol.
another what if! He certainly had a nimble technique, and was interested in the types of patterns and harmonies associated with this stuff, that he put in his method books.
"There is a parallel mystery here: why did jazz trombone not produce a player adept at the most virtuosic 60s jazz, who could keep up with the innovations of the Coltrane Quartet, Miles Quintet, and the younger Blue Note groups."
Absolutely brilliant deep dive into this musical friendship. The detail about that unrecorded 1961-62 sextet is wild becuase it couldve shifted jazz history entirely. Had a similar experince digging through old recordings and discovering these untold stories. The point about JJ's emphasis on "logic" versus the abstract approach needed for that mid-60s sound realy explains alot about trombone's trajectory.
Sending thanks from Australia - awesome read!
Marvellous read! Thx
why am I not surprised that you’re such a great writer? Is it good or bad to be in a subset of your fans who are also leah garchik fans?
Excellent piece that's given me lots to revisit and some inspirations for forthcoming radio show features. Thanks! ... Nou Dadoun, The A-Trane CFRO
Excellent piece, many thanks. It connects a few things that needed connecting. Random, but: am I alone in hearing "Minor Ninths, Part 1" and instantly thinking of Sun Ra? Something about the calm irresolution in the chords, along with that muted bell...
Could be. I thought of Messiaen quartet for the end of time, the movement with cello and piano.
Really great stuff -- many thanks. You pose an interesting question about who are the trombonists who could cope with the aesthetic and technical challenges of 1960s post-bop defined by the records Ethan points to. While I agree that Curtis Fuller isn't quite right for this context-- he's certainly not the equal of JoeHen, Herbie, Wayne, Freddie, Hutcherson, etc. -- he still makes a good showing on the two tracks on Wayne's "Schizophrenia" where he solos (the title tune and "Playground.") If he had additional opportunities in this idiom, I wonder how he might have developed. But the late '60s were a down-period for him personally and professionally, and he even left music for a day job at one point.
Otherwise, Grachan Moncur and Roswell Rudd were great in their lanes but not right in this context. What was Julian Priester up to post-Blakey and pre-Mwandishi? Does Garnett Brown even solo on "The Prisoner"?
Love Curtis Fuller, he is one of my all time favorites, and had the technique to do anything, but I don’t think he aesthetically aligned with this style. You can hear his own records like crankin where he didn’t really do a 70s miles thing. It was more along the lines of what j j did, funk vamps with a giant blowing session over it. The experimentation of bitches brew was removed. The others I love too but they all side stepped this by one way or another. Maybe they were smart to do so; grachan made spacey masterpieces that are way more compelling than listening to him do choruses on inner urge. There is also manglesdorff and eje thelin who made miles and trane inspired records in the 60s. Manglesdorff arrived at something else, texture over line, another way of sidestepping. He started as a more linear player.
I came to the comments to mention Julian Priester as well.
I love Priester - I think a favorite for me is Herbie Hancock's Sextant. But I don't think of him as jelling with that style of those mentioned above - the focus is complex harmony expressed through technically dazzling melodic lines...like I say, several of these folks could have done it but none seemed inclined to do it.
Me too. Also one of the nicest people I've met.
He has a pretty big discography that covers a lot of ground. I can't say I know a lot of it, but he played on some pretty straight ahead bebob in the 60s and my favorite albums I have with him on it are those with Dave Holland in the 80s which certainly fit the bill of complex harmony.
I can see how you'd say he's not one to play technically dazzling melodic lines.
There's an alternate universe where Bill Watrous, who studied with Herbie Nichols in the late 50s and was Roswell's roommate, devotes his considerable technique to small group avant garde jazz and discards all interest in commercialism. Lol.
David Baker plays some very incendiary solos on George Russell's records, he could have done it
another what if! He certainly had a nimble technique, and was interested in the types of patterns and harmonies associated with this stuff, that he put in his method books.
In fact I had this exact thought a few months ago and posted a comment on Ethan's page! lol.
https://open.substack.com/pub/iverson/p/tt-495-wee-and-david-baker?utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=99035657
This made my week. Thanks so much for weaving the threads together!
I’ve had Stonebone on repeat after reading this. Great essay!
"There is a parallel mystery here: why did jazz trombone not produce a player adept at the most virtuosic 60s jazz, who could keep up with the innovations of the Coltrane Quartet, Miles Quintet, and the younger Blue Note groups."
Julian Priester.